Some fact , that I known after reading the article , is that writing is the problem for many people or students all over the world . So , writing is the real hard thing to do . But many students can write , then you and I can also write , by the correct teaching . This article was written for teachers who try to be effective teachers of writing .
In page 4 of the article , I agree with the author that writing is thinking . And from page 2 of the article , he explained about the writing , that is inseparable from reading and we cannot write without reading . So , I can conclude that the true meaning of the reading in the writing process is the thinking. Then , he said about the other self . Again , I think that the other self and the thinking are the same thing . The main idea look like the Thai idiom “question to yourself and answer by yourself” or “ถามเอง ตอบเอง” . This idea is very usefully for everyone and for doing everything .
One idea in the article is amazing for me . That is , it does not work if you write in general terms for a large audience and he suggested that “The larger the audience , the more universal we want our message to be , the more specific we must become.” And I have already memorize the good sentence “Don’t write about Man , write about a man.”
Finally , I feel that the author was a good teacher . And I like his teaching concept that is teaching how to learn by themselves . This means that the methods of getting new knowledge are more important than the knowledge itself . This article is appropriate not only for writing teacher but also the teachers in other fields .
Tuesday, July 8, 2008
Understanding Composing
On the first two pages , the article introduced writing is viewed as a linear process , which mean plan-write-revise sequence , and writing is viewed as a recursive process , that there is a forward-moving action that exists by virtue of a backward-moving action . But in my opinion , the plan-write-revise sequence is a recursive process, also . Because the plan-write-revise sequence is not only one time process , after the writers revise , it returns to the plan-write-revise sequence again and again , until they satisfy .
I think , naturally , writing look like a general process , which has its way from start to finish . As it is common , the beginning is a fundamental of the following things . That is nothing surprised me , why do writer move back . In addition , I expect that all of writer , skilled and unskilled , use the process of retrospective structuring while writing by automation . So , the idea of the recognition of recursiveness in writing that came from the article is a general knowledge , which are accepted .
Next , she said about “felt sense” but had so little explanation for made it clear to me . She tried to describe this term with the four questions in page 102 . But her teaching is hard to understand .
After finished reading , I got the other view of writing from this article , that I never think before , but did not excited . Writing may be recursive process but I still gain nothing from this point of view . As she mentioned in the page 102 , “There seems to be a basic step in the process of composing that skilled writers rely on even when they are unaware of it and that less skilled writers can be taught” .
However , I like the statement that she explained about the composing process , that is “the ability to craft what one intends to say so that it is intelligible to others.” Her explanation was very clear for the difference between writing and composing .
I think , naturally , writing look like a general process , which has its way from start to finish . As it is common , the beginning is a fundamental of the following things . That is nothing surprised me , why do writer move back . In addition , I expect that all of writer , skilled and unskilled , use the process of retrospective structuring while writing by automation . So , the idea of the recognition of recursiveness in writing that came from the article is a general knowledge , which are accepted .
Next , she said about “felt sense” but had so little explanation for made it clear to me . She tried to describe this term with the four questions in page 102 . But her teaching is hard to understand .
After finished reading , I got the other view of writing from this article , that I never think before , but did not excited . Writing may be recursive process but I still gain nothing from this point of view . As she mentioned in the page 102 , “There seems to be a basic step in the process of composing that skilled writers rely on even when they are unaware of it and that less skilled writers can be taught” .
However , I like the statement that she explained about the composing process , that is “the ability to craft what one intends to say so that it is intelligible to others.” Her explanation was very clear for the difference between writing and composing .
Could somebody help Khun Kae, please?
Hi guys,
Khun Kae seems to not be able to post in our blog this week (due to a technical problem--not laziness!). He said he'd received an email saying that his invitation has expired. Does anybody know how to correct this, please?
Thank you very much,
K :)
Khun Kae seems to not be able to post in our blog this week (due to a technical problem--not laziness!). He said he'd received an email saying that his invitation has expired. Does anybody know how to correct this, please?
Thank you very much,
K :)
Monday, July 7, 2008
Teaching the Other Self: The Writer's First Reader
Dear all,
The writer should have self and the other self that cooperate for the best writing. The other self make clear writing. "The self speaks, the other self listens and responds. The self proposes, the other self cosiders. The self makes, the other self evaluates. The two selves collaborate: a problem is spotted, discussed, defined; solutions are proposed, rejected, suggested, attempted, tested, discarded, accepted." (Murray, p.109)
"You can read without writing, but you can't write without reading." (p.109) I agree with this sentence like Jib. Because when you write something - short or long - you must reread it (can read more than one time for sure), if you don't it may be have mistake (like I usually have some mistake in my homework even though I reread - -")
"The teacher listens, knowing that the effective teacher must teach where the student is, not where the teacher wishes the student was,..." (p.111)
"The teacher helps the student find the other self, get to know the other self, learn to work with the other self, ..." (p.112)
I agree with these 2 sentences. These are characterise of good teacher. I agree with Nid, too. We are very lucky that have a chance to study with Ajan Karnchanok. We do many assignments, we practice more so we should be better writer.
Someone have many experience should do anything - not specific about writing - better than the other that less experience.
So, let's write!
The writer should have self and the other self that cooperate for the best writing. The other self make clear writing. "The self speaks, the other self listens and responds. The self proposes, the other self cosiders. The self makes, the other self evaluates. The two selves collaborate: a problem is spotted, discussed, defined; solutions are proposed, rejected, suggested, attempted, tested, discarded, accepted." (Murray, p.109)
"You can read without writing, but you can't write without reading." (p.109) I agree with this sentence like Jib. Because when you write something - short or long - you must reread it (can read more than one time for sure), if you don't it may be have mistake (like I usually have some mistake in my homework even though I reread - -")
"The teacher listens, knowing that the effective teacher must teach where the student is, not where the teacher wishes the student was,..." (p.111)
"The teacher helps the student find the other self, get to know the other self, learn to work with the other self, ..." (p.112)
I agree with these 2 sentences. These are characterise of good teacher. I agree with Nid, too. We are very lucky that have a chance to study with Ajan Karnchanok. We do many assignments, we practice more so we should be better writer.
Someone have many experience should do anything - not specific about writing - better than the other that less experience.
So, let's write!
Thank you,
K[a]n`i
Teaching the Other Self: The Writer's First Reader
I like this article, so it is helpful for my writing. Before I read the article; I think that writing is one- way communication. Writers cannot knows the feedbacks from reader; It is defferent from talking.
Murray(1982) "The act of writing might be described as a conversation between two workman muttering to each other at the workbench. The two selves collaborate: a problem is spotted, discussed, defined; solutions are proposed, rejected, suggessted, attempted, tested, discarded, accepted".(p140) My attitude is changed; writing is two-way communication too.
It is a sophisticated reading that monitors writing before it is made, as it is made and after it is made.(p.141)
"Monitor" It is a important word. When I stydied in business field; I knew that monitoring is the one of assessment process. Monitoring assess acting compared with a plan. Monitoring is used in implementation period. This point is a little difference in this article.
Murray said that "[a]cing of writing is inseparable from the act of reading.You can read writing, but you can't write wihout reading.(p.141) It is a good point. I agree with this sentence, becuase writing and reading is activity done in a same time.
Finally, I have many points for this article, but I can't write them on this blog, becuase they are so long. The main points of this article are the self, the otherself, monitor and procedure of teaching.
While I read this article, Teacher Kan's face appears in my feeling. Why???
Best Regards
Banna Wanishayanun
Murray(1982) "The act of writing might be described as a conversation between two workman muttering to each other at the workbench. The two selves collaborate: a problem is spotted, discussed, defined; solutions are proposed, rejected, suggessted, attempted, tested, discarded, accepted".(p140) My attitude is changed; writing is two-way communication too.
It is a sophisticated reading that monitors writing before it is made, as it is made and after it is made.(p.141)
"Monitor" It is a important word. When I stydied in business field; I knew that monitoring is the one of assessment process. Monitoring assess acting compared with a plan. Monitoring is used in implementation period. This point is a little difference in this article.
Murray said that "[a]cing of writing is inseparable from the act of reading.You can read writing, but you can't write wihout reading.(p.141) It is a good point. I agree with this sentence, becuase writing and reading is activity done in a same time.
Finally, I have many points for this article, but I can't write them on this blog, becuase they are so long. The main points of this article are the self, the otherself, monitor and procedure of teaching.
While I read this article, Teacher Kan's face appears in my feeling. Why???
Best Regards
Banna Wanishayanun
Teaching the Other Self: The Writer's First Reader: Donald M. Murray (1982)
Hello All !
I have not written in this blog very so long time. I have to apology to Teacher who teach me English essay writing.
When I already read this article. I think that the writer will tell us about process of writing and teaches the other self. in some sentences, Murray says " The testimony of writers that they write for temselves opens a window on an important part of the writing process. If we look through that window we increase our understanding of the process and become more effective teachers of writing" In this sentense, I agree with him . It seems that we open our heart and brain for imagination how to write essays or journals.
And This article that " Teaching the Other Self:the Writer's First Reader" is topic of Murray tell us for teaching us. When we write, we are a writer, or when we read we are a reader. we cannot be a writer while we are reading. You can read without writing, but you can't write without reading. The reading skills required, however, to decode soemone else's finished text may be qute different from the reading skills required to chase a wisp of tinking until it grows in to a completed thought.
I think that this sentence is important of English teacher or other. Murray says "This done most efficently in conference. But before the conference at the beginning of the course, the teacher must explain to the class exactly why the student is to speak frist." He tell his students that he is going to do as ltttle as possible to interfere with their learining. It is their job to read the text, to evaluate it, io decide how it can be improved so that they will be able to write when I am not there. He point out that the ways in whinch they write are different, their problems and solutions are different and that He is a resource to help them find their own way. He will always attempt to underteach so that they can overlean. I feel to love this sentence because it looks like my teaching told me when she teaches English essay writing.
I like his style writing. He tells me about how to write.
thanks all
I have not written in this blog very so long time. I have to apology to Teacher who teach me English essay writing.
When I already read this article. I think that the writer will tell us about process of writing and teaches the other self. in some sentences, Murray says " The testimony of writers that they write for temselves opens a window on an important part of the writing process. If we look through that window we increase our understanding of the process and become more effective teachers of writing" In this sentense, I agree with him . It seems that we open our heart and brain for imagination how to write essays or journals.
And This article that " Teaching the Other Self:the Writer's First Reader" is topic of Murray tell us for teaching us. When we write, we are a writer, or when we read we are a reader. we cannot be a writer while we are reading. You can read without writing, but you can't write without reading. The reading skills required, however, to decode soemone else's finished text may be qute different from the reading skills required to chase a wisp of tinking until it grows in to a completed thought.
I think that this sentence is important of English teacher or other. Murray says "This done most efficently in conference. But before the conference at the beginning of the course, the teacher must explain to the class exactly why the student is to speak frist." He tell his students that he is going to do as ltttle as possible to interfere with their learining. It is their job to read the text, to evaluate it, io decide how it can be improved so that they will be able to write when I am not there. He point out that the ways in whinch they write are different, their problems and solutions are different and that He is a resource to help them find their own way. He will always attempt to underteach so that they can overlean. I feel to love this sentence because it looks like my teaching told me when she teaches English essay writing.
I like his style writing. He tells me about how to write.
thanks all
Teaching the Other Self: The Writer's First Reader
Hello everybody !
I have not to written in this blog very long time .The first Person who I should apology is my teacher.
When I read already this article
I have not to written in this blog very long time .The first Person who I should apology is my teacher.
When I read already this article
Teaching the Other Self: The Writer's First Reader
Dear all,
This article refers to the teacher who has to be a guide for the students and the process of the writing.
I agree with the sentences "You can read without writing, but you can't write without reading" (P.109) because everybody can read anything although reading has a long passage or long page but no one can't write anything if you don't realize the reading enough.
One of the writing process base on the emotional environment because if you feel sad, you will communicate your feeling throughout the letters in the dumps. However, no matter what you feel, the story will be communicated throughout something that you write.
According to the sentences "[l]istening is not a normal composition teacher's skill. We tell and they listen. But to make effective use of the other self the teacher and the student must listen together."(P.110) I agree with this sentences because no matter who are listening or speaking
everyone should be a good listener and accept with other opinions.
Finally, I accept with Khun Nid and Khun Preaw too. Fortunately, that I and my friends can learn a lots of things about writing throughout assignments and the teacher like you (Ph.D. Karnchanoke). Although we will have a lot of problems or questions, Aj. Karn will glad to answer everything that Aj. Karn knows.
Thank you so much for teaching us
^_^
This article refers to the teacher who has to be a guide for the students and the process of the writing.
I agree with the sentences "You can read without writing, but you can't write without reading" (P.109) because everybody can read anything although reading has a long passage or long page but no one can't write anything if you don't realize the reading enough.
One of the writing process base on the emotional environment because if you feel sad, you will communicate your feeling throughout the letters in the dumps. However, no matter what you feel, the story will be communicated throughout something that you write.
According to the sentences "[l]istening is not a normal composition teacher's skill. We tell and they listen. But to make effective use of the other self the teacher and the student must listen together."(P.110) I agree with this sentences because no matter who are listening or speaking
everyone should be a good listener and accept with other opinions.
Finally, I accept with Khun Nid and Khun Preaw too. Fortunately, that I and my friends can learn a lots of things about writing throughout assignments and the teacher like you (Ph.D. Karnchanoke). Although we will have a lot of problems or questions, Aj. Karn will glad to answer everything that Aj. Karn knows.
Thank you so much for teaching us
^_^
Teaching the Other Self: The Writer's First Reader
This article (Murray, 1982) explain writer and reader in one person. According to Aj. Karn told us. The last week in our class we study about process writing. The process writing has three types and I know linear and recursive from Perl,1980.
This article said that "the self writes, the other self reads" (p.109). When you write work, you are writer and when you read work after write finish, you are reader. You can read or write recursive because you don't write and read linear. I think good example of Murray said that "[a]nd when that change is made then everything must be read again to see how the change affects the reading" (p.109). It's the ture. It doesn't writing or reading only but all things have two sides. The thinking have angel and devil.
And I like the say that "[t]he successful writer does not so much correct eror as discover what is working and extend that element in the writing" (p.112). This is about thinking or idea same old article but I don't remember. I cannot write extension that element in the writing and focus the important point.
This article said that "the self writes, the other self reads" (p.109). When you write work, you are writer and when you read work after write finish, you are reader. You can read or write recursive because you don't write and read linear. I think good example of Murray said that "[a]nd when that change is made then everything must be read again to see how the change affects the reading" (p.109). It's the ture. It doesn't writing or reading only but all things have two sides. The thinking have angel and devil.
And I like the say that "[t]he successful writer does not so much correct eror as discover what is working and extend that element in the writing" (p.112). This is about thinking or idea same old article but I don't remember. I cannot write extension that element in the writing and focus the important point.
Teaching the Other's Self: The writer's first reader
Dear all,
Murray talked about “other's self” that writers, student should have both the self and other's self. This is important for their writing process.
Furthermore, Murray informed that the teacher could help their student to improve their composing process by the teacher is the reader and response them. And he suggested that the writer should write for their readers, not for themselves.
Murray said that “"The teacher listens, knowing that the effective teacher must teach where the student is, not where the teacher wishes the student was, then scans or re-scans the draft to confirm, adjust, or disagree with the student’s comments” I agree with him. I realize the teachers should understand about the difference between individual.
I really agree with the sentence “You can read without writing, but you can’t write without reading.”
Moreover, Murray informed that “The teacher has to be a guide who doesn't lead so much as stand behind the young explorer, pointing our alternatives only at the moment of panic".
I like this article because it is good suggestions for the teachers to help their students, like me, to improve writing process.
Regards,
Jib
Murray talked about “other's self” that writers, student should have both the self and other's self. This is important for their writing process.
Furthermore, Murray informed that the teacher could help their student to improve their composing process by the teacher is the reader and response them. And he suggested that the writer should write for their readers, not for themselves.
Murray said that “"The teacher listens, knowing that the effective teacher must teach where the student is, not where the teacher wishes the student was, then scans or re-scans the draft to confirm, adjust, or disagree with the student’s comments” I agree with him. I realize the teachers should understand about the difference between individual.
I really agree with the sentence “You can read without writing, but you can’t write without reading.”
Moreover, Murray informed that “The teacher has to be a guide who doesn't lead so much as stand behind the young explorer, pointing our alternatives only at the moment of panic".
I like this article because it is good suggestions for the teachers to help their students, like me, to improve writing process.
Regards,
Jib
Sunday, July 6, 2008
Teaching the Other Self: The Writing's First Reader
This post is Raweewan's. She wrote this post in my comment so I just copy it and post for her.
She said ...
hi guys
this is my first time to post the comment.
this article is talking about teacher can help students to improve their writting process by give them the response besides the teacher have to realize that the way their student write are different so they need different solution.
Moreover teacher can guide their student when they lack of self confidence or panic.
Murray said " The teacher has to be a guide who doesn't lead so much as stand behind the young explorer,pointing our alternatives only at the moment of panic" (page 110)
"i point out that the ways in which they write are different, their problems and solutions are different and that i am a resource to help them find their own way "(page 111)
i'm a kind of person who have a problem with attention deficit so it's quite hard for me to concentrate with reading articlesor doing something continously for a long time but i will try my bestto understand the articles so i hope u guys will understand my problems.
see u guys in class
take care
July 6, 2008 7:15 AM
She said ...
hi guys
this is my first time to post the comment.
this article is talking about teacher can help students to improve their writting process by give them the response besides the teacher have to realize that the way their student write are different so they need different solution.
Moreover teacher can guide their student when they lack of self confidence or panic.
Murray said " The teacher has to be a guide who doesn't lead so much as stand behind the young explorer,pointing our alternatives only at the moment of panic" (page 110)
"i point out that the ways in which they write are different, their problems and solutions are different and that i am a resource to help them find their own way "(page 111)
i'm a kind of person who have a problem with attention deficit so it's quite hard for me to concentrate with reading articlesor doing something continously for a long time but i will try my bestto understand the articles so i hope u guys will understand my problems.
see u guys in class
take care
July 6, 2008 7:15 AM
Saturday, July 5, 2008
Teaching the Other's Self: The writer's first reader
Hi all,
This article seems to be only for the teacher who wants to be an effective teacher of writing. The teacher should be a helper for all students but shouldn't tell them all what to do -- teach them as LESS as possible, let them experience their writting.
A writer must have the self and the other self. These two selves collaborate in a writing process . A teacher can help students being beginners of writing to find their other self by pretending to be other self of the students -- being their (the writer's) first reader and giving them responses -- so they can improve thier text or do next draft to evolve their writing.
That means this article is also for all students who want to be good writers. The students have to learn from the teacher how s/he can be their other self (the other self). So the students can get more confidence to write with no teacher beside them.
Murry said, "The teacher listens, knowing that the effective teacher must teach where the student is, not where the teacher wishes the student was..." (p. 111) I really like and agree with Murry. And I think you all agree with me too. (^_^)
I would like to say that I and you, my friends, are very lucky that we have a good teacher as Ajan Karnchanok. Although she gives us a lot of assignments, I still love her as a great teacher because I believe that every assignments are good for me and you all.
Thank you all
Have a great day :)
This article seems to be only for the teacher who wants to be an effective teacher of writing. The teacher should be a helper for all students but shouldn't tell them all what to do -- teach them as LESS as possible, let them experience their writting.
A writer must have the self and the other self. These two selves collaborate in a writing process . A teacher can help students being beginners of writing to find their other self by pretending to be other self of the students -- being their (the writer's) first reader and giving them responses -- so they can improve thier text or do next draft to evolve their writing.
That means this article is also for all students who want to be good writers. The students have to learn from the teacher how s/he can be their other self (the other self). So the students can get more confidence to write with no teacher beside them.
Murry said, "The teacher listens, knowing that the effective teacher must teach where the student is, not where the teacher wishes the student was..." (p. 111) I really like and agree with Murry. And I think you all agree with me too. (^_^)
I would like to say that I and you, my friends, are very lucky that we have a good teacher as Ajan Karnchanok. Although she gives us a lot of assignments, I still love her as a great teacher because I believe that every assignments are good for me and you all.
Thank you all
Have a great day :)
Tuesday, July 1, 2008
Understanding Composing
I feel it's difficult for me. This paper say about the writing by "felt sense". I don't know how I explain. I like this sentence "When writers are given a topic, the topic itself evokes a felt sense in them. This topic calls forth images, words, ideas, and vague fuzzy feelings that are anchored in the writer's body." (p. 101)
The people can write the stories, it's up to experience.If the writers have many experiences so they can many the write more than the other.
The people can write the stories, it's up to experience.If the writers have many experiences so they can many the write more than the other.
Monday, June 30, 2008
Understanding Composing
The writing is linear process. It is plan, write and revise sequence, but the writing is a recursive process too. The recursive process of each person are different.
"To what do writers move back?" I think that the writers reread an essay.
"What exactly is being repeated?" It is my notion of the topic. When I pause, I will repeat key words.
"What recurs?" It is a back word movement in writing.
Those are my opinion.
When I write an essay. If I pause, I use a recursive process. I will reread my assay. Then my notion of the topic will be repeated. finally, My writing is continued by me using recursive process.
Banna
"To what do writers move back?" I think that the writers reread an essay.
"What exactly is being repeated?" It is my notion of the topic. When I pause, I will repeat key words.
"What recurs?" It is a back word movement in writing.
Those are my opinion.
When I write an essay. If I pause, I use a recursive process. I will reread my assay. Then my notion of the topic will be repeated. finally, My writing is continued by me using recursive process.
Banna
I understand composing a story
Dear all,
I don’t know exactly whether I am the last person writing and sending this weekly report to our blog or not. Because it’s almost midnight of Monday now. Sorry I almost forgot writing it as today is my very big day for me. I just woke up about twenty minutes before sitting in front of the computer screen and writing.
Remember, this is our fourth report since our class began, isn’t it? We have read past three issues about writing. I’m sure that all of us would have more understanding about writing process than before. Now we may identify ourselves what types of writers we want to be- blockers or non-blockers and we may also distinguish them. As for the conclusion of the text this week, I understood that the writer was showing us how writers developed their thought and then wrote their stories. The text given cited examples of twenty teachers who were taking a course in research and basic writing at New York University. During the course each was given a topic and was told to compose the story later and everyone had his or her own style to write the story.
I don’t want to go in to details about the style of composing stories of each participant but what I want to share with you is the way I always compose my stories. I would say that I don’t have a rigid rules about writing. To make sure that my story would not be complicated, one thing bears in my mind is that I would reread every sentence several times to check unity and coherence of the story. I think that today I would be enough to share my idea with all of you because it was a tiring long day for me. I need to take more rest as I think I have already got a cold. Hope everyone take care of yourselves because weather is changing all the times. And don’t forget to blanket your body. Good Night.
Thanks
Anucha Charoenpo
I don’t know exactly whether I am the last person writing and sending this weekly report to our blog or not. Because it’s almost midnight of Monday now. Sorry I almost forgot writing it as today is my very big day for me. I just woke up about twenty minutes before sitting in front of the computer screen and writing.
Remember, this is our fourth report since our class began, isn’t it? We have read past three issues about writing. I’m sure that all of us would have more understanding about writing process than before. Now we may identify ourselves what types of writers we want to be- blockers or non-blockers and we may also distinguish them. As for the conclusion of the text this week, I understood that the writer was showing us how writers developed their thought and then wrote their stories. The text given cited examples of twenty teachers who were taking a course in research and basic writing at New York University. During the course each was given a topic and was told to compose the story later and everyone had his or her own style to write the story.
I don’t want to go in to details about the style of composing stories of each participant but what I want to share with you is the way I always compose my stories. I would say that I don’t have a rigid rules about writing. To make sure that my story would not be complicated, one thing bears in my mind is that I would reread every sentence several times to check unity and coherence of the story. I think that today I would be enough to share my idea with all of you because it was a tiring long day for me. I need to take more rest as I think I have already got a cold. Hope everyone take care of yourselves because weather is changing all the times. And don’t forget to blanket your body. Good Night.
Thanks
Anucha Charoenpo
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